Joan Rodgers and Julius Drake talking to Sean Rafferty
BBC Radio 3 In Tune, Friday 25 September 2009
This interview can be heard through the Radio 3 website until Friday 2 October
SR: …Leeds is where my two guests are headed. Julius Drake is artistic director of Leeds Lieder plus, he promises it will be a weekend to remember, that’s the weekend after this one that is, he’s also of course one of the leading chamber music pianists, as such he’s playing with one of our most celebrated sopranos, he and Joan Rodgers are right here to perform now, and we begin with Tchaikovsky
[Music: Tchaikovsky, “To forget so soon”]
SR: Little dark delight from Tchaikovsky, Joan Rodgers and Julius Drake at the piano, live here in the studio. Well, they’re heading to Leeds for Leeds Lieder plus, doing a concert on Sunday 4th of October, and there’s a very nice quote in the programme from Vladimir Ashkenazy about Joan saying “I found her identification with Tchaikovsky almost uncanny having heard countless performances in my native Russia, I was totally overcome by her unaffectedness and sincerity. Her intonation is faultless, her Russian excellent. A rare treat indeed.” Joan Rodgers is just blushing very nicely after that [laughter] … but then after all you did Russian first of all didn’t you?
JR: I did, yes actually, eh it’s come in handy
SR: So what is your accent? Pure St Petersburg imperial then?
JR: Probably [laughing] I don’t know about imperial, it’s more Leningrad than St Petersburg I think
SR: Oh is it [laughter]… an earlier era. It’s a Franco-Russian connection Julius this particular concert [JD: yes] which of course would have been very strong, the French connections to Russia were immense weren’t they?
JD: of course, yes
JR: especially in St Petersburg
JD: Yes absolutely yes, and of course Tchaikovsky spoke and actually wrote in French, he wrote some French songs, we’re doing some of his French settings as well as Russian settings…
SR: I mean it was a very sort of upper class thing to do wasn’t it [JR: Mmmm] to speak French in grand circles rather than Russian [JD: Absolutely. Absolutely]. So can you detect, Joan, in what you’re singing, can you detect a musical undertone in it?
JR: Between French and Russian? [SR: yeah] Erm… No [laughs] [SR: No, no...] sorry to disappoint you.
SR: it was with a shot [laughter]
JR: I feel the texture is so very different I find… even Tchaikovsky’s settings in French… they do feel a bit lighter actually, but they’ve still got that kind of velvety quality of Russian [JD: That’s true] a sort of bronze quality, I think French is silver, if I was to try and…
JD: …it’s so strange isn’t it to what makes music have a nationalistic slant or quality – why does French music sound French, and does English music sound English and Russian music sound Russian?
SR: It must be affected by the language… [JD: It must be the language...] in Russian the vowels sound dark aren’t they, the language is dark.
JD: And yet, as Joan says, if you’re Tchaikovsky setting French you do still sound like Tchaikovsky, you still sound like a Russian composer.
JR: I’ve said this many times, Russian is a fantastic language to sing in, it’s supposed to be second only to Italian you know, so… the consonants don’t get in the way, in the way that certainly German and English is much more difficult
SR: You get a bigger romantic role, a musical role…
JR: …and the achievement of legato I think is easier in some ways…
SR: Presumably that means you play the piano differently for the Russian repertoire?
JD: Yes, I mean the whole sound-world of the great Russian composers… it’s such a… as I say, it’s an elusive thing, it’s hard to describe, Mussorgsky you can’t imagine anybody who would write music more different than Rachmaninov, and yet they are both very clearly Russian, and there’s something we call Russian music as a result. Um, I suppose just the same as Vaughan Williams is very different from Britten and yet there is some essential something there… and I think you’re right Sean that must come, in the end it must come from the language.
SR: What was it that attracted you to the Russian language?
JR: Well, I studied it at school and university, and my professors… [SR: not many schools do Russian do they?] no, it’s funny, my headmaster had been off to Moscow, and thought we ought to learn Russian…
SR: You’re not a spy are you Joan [laughter]
JR: I can’t say… [laughter] no but it’s interesting isn’t it…
JD: …biography’s coming out [laughter]
SR: That was before music, so did the language take you to the music or… what?
JR: No I always knew I wanted to sing, and it was my professors at university who really adored music and got me singing in Russian, actually introduced me to that and so that’s how I really started. I guess I would have got into Russian music but they certainly encouraged me greatly
SR: Is there anything very, very light in the Russian song repertoire? We always think of it as you say, bronze.
JR: Dargomyzhsky… Dargomyzhsky and Cui…
JD: Do you mean light-hearted? [SR: hmm]
JR: yes…there are operas which are…
JD: …yeah, well, the Nursery of Mussorgsky for instance [SR: yes of course]
JR: It is, and yet at the same time it’s so substantial…
JD: …because it’s great music [JR: yes, it’s great music] but they’re light-hearted, the poems, full of fun.
JR: I would say Dargomyzhsky and Cui, people like that, are a little lighter, possibly.
SR: And bits of Shostakovich I suppose too [JD: yes! Shostakovich]
JR: There’s one really lovely song we should have done today, it’s a setting… Dargomyzhsky has set it – A girl and a boy – and Shostakovich has, and so different, but Shostakovich sets it with such lightness [JD: Mm] and it’s very touching [Mmm] the way he’s done it… he’s a genius
SR: He is a genius, and we had some of his light-hearted film music for two violins and piano last night, which is marvellous and incredibly romantic [JD: Mm, Mm] and delicious.
Well, we move from Russian to the French, and not a Russian setting of French, but you can’t get more French I suppose, or more cheeky, than Poulenc, can you. What are you going to do? These are from something called La Courte Paille, The Short Straw, which are children’s songs [JR: They are, they are] nonsense songs aren’t they?
JR: Yes, well, you know the first one, Le sommeil, is a little lullaby really, so you know, the normal thing “if you don’t go to sleep you won’t get your treats”, and the second one is very sweet, Quelle aventure, which is about a flea pulling along an elephant, and the observer says “I can’t believe I’m seeing this. What am I going to tell mummy?”
SR: Yes exactly. And looking on at the shop window where the diamonds were shining and “it’s absolutely true but I don’t think my mother’s going to believe it”
[Music: Poulenc “La Sommeil” and “Quelle aventure” from La Courte Paille]
SR: [Laughing] Well the next time you’re thinking of telling a porky about why you’re going to be late why not go the whole hog and say you saw a flea pulling an elephant, you might as well enjoy yourself. [Laughter] If Poulenc can do it why not. Settings of Maurice Carême, and I think they were for the great singer called Denise Duval to sing to her six year old son, so very nice.
JR: …and she really had the idiom so beautifully, she sang these wonderfully
SR: Mmm. Have you checked it out? There aren’t recordings of Denise Duval are there?
JR: No I haven’t heard her do them, I’m just thinking in general the way she sings Poulenc, and he wrote so much stuff for her, she was so committed to it…
JD: She was one of his real favourites [JR: Yes]
SR: Well he’s such an extraordinary composer isn’t he, there’s everything from the serious to the really cheeky and delightful like this.
JD: He’s one of the great song composers of the 20th century
JR: You know, other songs of this cycle, you can hear the Carmellites [JD: Hm] you know these unmistakable, hefty, Poulenc chords
JD: even in something as light-hearted as La Courte Paille
SR: Lovely. Two little gems. [JD: Hm, hm] Thank you very much indeed. They’re featuring in your Franco-Russian connection recital, which is the last of the Lieder plus recitals next weekend. What is the “plus” for by the way Julius?
JD: Erm… [Laughing] I knew you’d ask me a difficult question Sean. I think it’s Lieder in all its forms, or song I should say in all its forms. I’m full of admiration for Jane Anthony in Leeds and her amazing team who have put together Leeds Lieder, because it is an absolute act of love, a passion for song and a real wish to really get song out to people and make people realise what a wonderful repertoire it is, and so she had this idea that she would put on a song weekend, a long weekend, biannually, celebrating song, but with events all through the year leading up to it. For instance the first concert Frauenliebe und Leben was performed and there’s been a whole workshop on Frauenliebe und Leben leading up to it. And erm, I just completely take my hat off to her…
SR: Yes. So there’s quite a lot really going on, apart from the Franco-Russian connection which you both are doing, there’s flamenco and all sorts of strange…
JD: It’s the three evening concerts, the last of which is Joan’s, the Saturday night concert is James Gilchrist and the Endellion Quartett exploring English song [SR: Which he does beautifully] Wenlock edge and the Gurney setting. Erm, and a new work by Gavin Bryars for James and I. And then the first concert is Christianne Stotijn singing a wonderful mixture of German, I suppose celebrating German Lieder with Frauenliebe und Leben. But then of course in the day there are these other concerts, including a flamenco workshop, including concerts in schools…
JR: It’s the singing with the flamenco, but is it dancing too, I know they’re going to have a singing workshop which I think is amazing…
JD: No I think it’s about the way they sing [JR: the way they sing is so extraordinary] that extraordinary guttural quality that comes [SR: Do they sing and dance at the same time?] Each festival of Leeds Lieder they explore some element of song, if you like World music song…
SR: And there’s a youthful element, you’vet some new works involving young people
JD: There are, the first thing kicking off on Friday at 2 o’clock is Discovering Lieder which is going into schools, eight different schools in the area and exploring songs. And then they have Cool Lieder, the Leeds Lieder team have prepared a whole volume of favourite songs, things like Butterworth, Fauré, Schumann, favourite songs, and taking them to schools getting the class to learn them and then performing them, so they’re tremendously enterprising… they’ve got a song-writing project for primary schools…
SR: How much do you get intensely involved in this then as Artistic Director?
JD: Well I don’t, that’s why I say it’s really Jane who should be here and should be taking the glory, and her marvellous team, because they’re the people who’ve had the idea in the first place, they’ve done the work, they’ve put these superb projects together, these projects I was talking about I’m not involved with, I’m the overall Artistic Director and invited Joan and James and Christianne to come, and the Endellions, and I’ve overseen the programming, but really I can’t take more credit than that.
SR: That’s all right, you’ve got the clout to get nice people like Joan to come out [JD: Yeah I know, I can lean on them - laughing] Very important, very important. Well, it’s good to have you with us, your chariot awaits at some stage, but you’ll be taking it in easy stages as you’re not there until next weekend after all [JD: Yep] It’s from Friday the 2nd until Sunday the 4th .
Shostakovich to finish, and I think I’m going to get you to explain this Joan, because it’s quite a tortured little satirical tale that Chonry* whoever he was, was having a go at all the philistines in early 20th century Russia
JR: Absolutely, this cycle is fantastic, and it’s got that sort of burlesque quality to it, you know you were saying earlier what was played last night, there’s this side of Shostakovich, you know a very satirical [SR: Quite racy too] wicked side, and it’s such fun. This particular song is called A Misunderstanding and I just thought I’d read out the translation because it really is worth listening to…
SR: Hmmm, there’ll be some stanzas between a poet, or a poetess and a curly-haired young man
JR: …and a young admirer.
She was a poetess. One from Balzac’s time. And he was just a rake with dark curly hair. The rake visited the poetess. They whispered in the half-light on the sofa as on a throne, and the poetess read aloud her verses. “Come and arouse my sleepy passion with your fiery caresses, don’t be afraid to bring your lips toward the top of my thighs by my stocking. [laughter] I’m pure as a wild flower, oh let’s interweave our exhausted bodies.” This is what happened next. The curly-haired young man blushed. He blushed but soon recovered and thought “Well I never. This is hardly the speech of men in parliament, words aren’t what we need here but actions!” With all his strength the rake embraced the poetess and coarsely shouted “Mavra! Mavra! Mavra!”. But the passions froze over. “I’m sorry he cried out but you…” Now her eyes were cool and haughty. “How dare you insult a lady’s respectability like some servant. Mavra is a highly decorous person.” So our frightened guest beat a retreat, and it took him quite a while to find his walking cane. He came down pale-faced from the staircase. He never understood the new verses by the poetess of Balzac’s time.” [Laughter]
JD: Only Shostakovich would have set that to music…
SR: Yes exactly. So here it comes, Misunderstanding from Satires opus 109, Joan Rodgers and Julius Drake
[music: Shostakovich Satires, op.109 “Misunderstanding”]
SR: [laughing] A little whimsical end to that song – whose side are you on Joan Rodgers the Balzacian poetess or that curly headed rake, Joan Rodgers with Julius Drake, Misunderstanding from Satires by Shostakovich. They are there at the Leeds Lieder Festival, and their gala concert is next Sunday 4th October, but the Festival itself starts next Friday and cascades through the weekend with of course a great cast of artists. Thank you very much for being with us.
*pseudonym of the person who wrote the text